Transcripts - Episode 22: The Most Controversial Rules In Golf

The Birdie Board podcast is brought to you by the Birdie Board app, the easiest way to track matches, scores, and handicaps with friends.
Now, here's your host, Corey, with another episode of the Birdie Board podcast.

Welcome to episode 22 of the Birdie Board podcast.

In this episode, I decided I wanted to talk about the most controversial golf topics. So like what everyone else does nowadays, they did a little bit of ChatGPT to help compile that list together.

The reason I had this is actually because of a viral post that I had. So I've been doing a lot of marketing for Birdie Board, and most of the posts get a pretty predictable amount of views or interactions depending on the platform.

But something that happened to me was one of my Facebook videos about whether or not you should be allowed to move a ball out of a divot. And that Facebook video got, I want to say, like over 60 or 70,000 views. I haven't actually checked it like a month or two ago.

Some of you might have found out about this podcast because of that post. So I thought, well, if that was a pretty popular post, let's see what else there is out there.

So that's exactly what I'm going to talk about in this podcast: what are some of those controversial rules, and just how do we handle them, especially as amateurs?

So the first one I had on the list here that I came up with was kind of an ancient rule, where if you remember, flagsticks used to not be allowed to be left in. It would be, I think it was a one-stroke penalty if you hit the flagstick while putting, and that rule was changed a while ago.

And now you can optionally leave the flagstick in or not. Obviously, during COVID, it was super popular to leave the flagstick in. Some people or some courses said not to take it out at all.

I know some of the courses around me had a little noodle at the bottom of the flagstick so that you didn't even have to reach down to get your ball. And I think that probably has increased the preference of keeping the flagstick in. I feel like sometimes I see it left in more often now than I did prior to COVID.

But the reason it's kind of controversial is that a lot of golfers still think it's a penalty, and they will believe that it is. It still feels wrong to older players. So that kind of creates a social awkwardness, and also creates awkwardness whether or not you should leave it in.

So imagine this: imagine one person wants to leave it in and the other one wants to take it out. Well, what do you do?

And trying to handle that, my advice would be to just probably take it out if you really don't care. But I know for me, and I'm thinking of my dad, my dad actually thinks the flagstick in is an advantage because in his mind it will stop the ball if he's putted it too quickly.

I, on the other hand, have the opposite thought where, from a psychological point of view, I think leaving the flagstick in makes the hole look smaller, and then conversely taking it out makes it look larger.

I think it's psychological, but I actually do think it helps with my putting to actually see it. So I'll only leave the flagstick in if I can't see the hole from far away. Otherwise, I will take it out.

And a part of this discussion is whether it speeds up play. In my opinion, I just don't think leaving the flagstick in or out is enough of a task that slows it down.

Maybe you have a different thought on that, but I just can't imagine why taking a flagstick out or putting it back in adds that much extra time to a round by the end. Maybe a couple of seconds. So you're talking like maybe an additional 45 seconds or a minute by the end of a four-hour round. It's minuscule.

So that was the first controversy: whether or not you should leave the flagstick in.

The next one here is kind of getting a little more serious here, which is accidentally moving your ball on the green.

In the past there has been penalties and it was really strict, but nowadays there is no penalty if you accidentally move your ball on the green. You can just replace it in the original spot, no penalty, and call it a day.

So it's kind of controversial because it almost feels like you are getting away with something, and it adds some subjectiveness to an accident. So how do you know when something's truly an accident?

So if I'm watching my buddy and he accidentally moves the ball, whether it's during a mark placement or just accidentally kicks it or something like that, how do I really know he replaced it not in a bad spot?

So like I guess maybe there's a little indent right underneath of his ball. Yes, he could fix it with a divot repair tool, but maybe it's not fixable for some reason, maybe there's a better rock. Who knows how I know it's not just improving the lie.

So that's one perspective.

But from the other perspective, it's like okay, you can pick up your ball and pretty much repair the spot where your ball is no matter what.

The question is, I guess, if you replace your ball more left than right or right, that's different.

So did you accidentally move your ball without the marker on the ground? That could be a big differentiating factor, because then if you say you accidentally kicked your ball halfway across the green walking up to it, unless someone had an eye on exactly where your ball was, how do you know it's getting replaced back to the same spot?

So that's the controversy: do you think golfers should get penalized if they accidentally move the ball?

Sort of my opinion, I think it's okay. You don't see it happen very often.

I feel like if you saw it a lot on tour by the same player every round, accidentally moving their ball, maybe you would start to question, okay, is this person improving their lie?

But I just haven't seen that happen on tour.

Maybe you've seen it in your personal life or your personal game where you saw someone accidentally move their putting ball and they replaced it and it seemed to have increased their ability to make the next putt.

I've never seen that on the green, which is I think why this rule ultimately ended up being what it is, is that it just wasn't that big of a deal.

But yeah, that's accidentally moving your ball on the green.

This one is a reprise of the original viral moment, which is divots in the fairway.

So the rule says that if your ball lands in the fairway and it lands in a divot, you have to play it as it lies.

It's very, very controversial, probably one of the biggest ones I've heard of because you hit a good ball into the fairway, but you're rewarded with a bad lie.

So you should be rewarded with a good lie right in the middle of the fairway. That's the thought.

So it just raises so many different parts of the, so many questions.

It's like one, is a divot considered part of the course? Because if it is considered part of the course, that would justify why you don't get free relief.

But a divot isn't just a mound in the course or a swell in the fairway. It is man-made. It's something that would be repaired by the next round in professional tours.

So should someone get penalized for that? Should an amateur play, where we see very, very little divots get fixed sometimes, should we play out of divots because we're going to probably encounter a lot more than what a pro would?

Some viewpoints on this is like, should there only be relief from fresh divots?

I don't think that's a great perspective because how do you determine whether or not something is a fresh divot? I think that's just a very, very difficult thing to understand.

And if we were in standing water, we would get free relief. But water isn't man-made, but a divot is.

And then if we're by a man-made structure and our ball is there, I saw this happen with Scottie Scheffler the other day. He hit his ball near the grandstand. He got a whole club-length relief and got to drop it. He had a great lie into, a great view into the green.

Why is that any different than divots?

So if you can't tell, my personal opinion is you shouldn't get penalized for being in the fairway, and you should get what a lot of people play with, which is just like a lift, clean, and replace type of rule.

I think that's a perfectly acceptable way. But the rule as it is today does say you do not get free relief from divots in the fairway.

The next one is kind of similar to what I just talked about in temporary water versus like a penalty area.

So if you're in temporary water, you get free relief, but in a penalty area you will get a one-stroke penalty.

Well, it's a kind of a weird controversy and one that you probably haven't heard of too often, but it's two water situations. One is a free drop, one is a penalty.

I think this rule makes a lot of sense. Temporary water, it is temporary. It's kind of the same idea in my mind as like a divot. It's not supposed to be there. So if it's not supposed to be there, you get clean, lift, and replace.

But some people really do believe that temporary water should be treated just like a penalty area where you can play it if you want without any relief, or you can take a one-stroke penalty and drop a club length or two to get out of that area and play it like a red stake or yellow stake.

I don't necessarily agree with that. I just don't think temporary water is natural course conditions. It could be in the middle of a fairway, and it goes back to the same idea with the divot problem.

Should they get the free relief out of the divot? I think so, and same with temporary water.

I think the only thing with temporary water is it can be so much larger than a divot. So then it's like, okay, how much further do we go left or right?

And another huge thing is like, what is temporary water? How do we judge whether it is temporary?

And I think that's probably where a lot of the controversial topic comes up now that I'm thinking about it.

If I'm being honest, when I first read this rule, I'm like, how's the controversy around this? Like temporary water, of course you get free relief for that.

But now it's making sense in my mind: what is temporary water? How do you determine if it's temporary or not?

If you play a course a lot, maybe you know there's not supposed to be water there. But even at that, it's like, how do you determine if it's temporary or just wet ground? That's a great question too.

Does it have to come up to a certain part of the ball, halfway or not?

And then you get into the subjectiveness of like, okay, is this water at the halfway point and on your ball or not?

There's so many different ways that I guess you could interpret this rule, and it makes a lot more sense why this temporary water relief can be so controversial because it's hard to define what temporary water is.

Next one I actually heard about recently on a YouTube video.

So I actually made a YouTube video related to this too. So it's Bryson's, he calls it the Reebok Invitational. It's also known as the, I think he called it the YouTube Golf Invitational.

I think that's the title of his YouTube video, it's a hundred thousand dollar tournament.

Quick side note, I made a YouTube video that shows how Birdie Board could have been used for this round. It's really, really cool. I spent a lot of time for it. I encourage you to check it out and watch it. It's only like eight minutes long.

It's on the Birdie Board YouTube channel. I think as of right now, it's February 24th. It's the last video I posted, so it should be pretty easy to find.

But in this video, if you watch it, they did talk about this rule of out of bounds and how it should be treated. Should it be treated more like a red stake or should it be treated as stroke and distance like we are today?

So in the video they actually modified it for their round. I agreed that it should be lateral relief with one stroke. And that was interesting to me because it really highlights the controversy of this rule. And I hadn't heard about this rule until now.

But for me and my personal golf game, the out of bounds is one of the most deadly penalties that I get in my game.

Not because it's already hard enough for amateurs to keep the ball in bounds. Now I have to go back to my previous spot.

Or you can play that local rule that allows you to drop back in the fairway for a two-stroke penalty, with the idea that helps increase pace of play.

Do we actually want this rule? I was thinking about this personally and I go back and forth.

One stroke and distance seems very harsh for out of bounds, maybe for an amateur who probably will have a hard time keeping the ball in bounds anyways.

Another thing I thought about is like okay, what's the purpose of an out of bounds stake?

And I think it's in the name. It's like okay, this is out of bounds.

But out of bounds of what? Is it arbitrary lines on the hole, or is it actually like the boundaries of the property?

In my mind, if the out of bounds is the boundaries of the property, it makes sense. If you're shooting in a neighborhood, for example, white stakes should protect those people's yards.

You shouldn't be able to go into someone's backyard and hit out of it.

Same with like I have a couple courses near farmland. We shouldn't be allowed to go into the farmland and play a ball from out of there.

So the question is okay, maybe it's not stroke and distance.

Maybe it's still treated like a red stake or a yellow stake.

But why is that distance a factor for an out of bounds?

And I think that's what I probably disagree with.

I think part of this too is why a lot of people want to play red stakes, and I'm kind of getting to this, is there's probably a lot of places where it should be red stakes but it's white stakes.

So you think like you're in the middle of a course clearly inside the property boundaries and there's white stakes up the left-hand side of the fairway and there's another hole right on the outside of that fairway.

It's like why is there even white stakes there? Like it is purposely just making the course harder, maybe.

Maybe that's what they're doing. But it's definitely treated a lot harder.

And I would guess that most amateurs don't play correctly because unless it's very obvious that their ball went out of bounds, which definitely happens for some amateurs, they might just not know whether the ball was out of bounds.

And if they don't know their ball was out of bounds then they go up there, they check it out, they're not going to go back to where they hit the ball from.

They're probably going to play it like a red stake, or they play by the rules as close as they can and they go out to the middle of fairway and drop for a two-stroke penalty. That's what a lot of times happens to me.

So that's kind of the controversy: should out of bounds stakes be treated like red stakes?

I love that idea, especially for amateur play, maybe not pro play, and we'll maybe get into that later, like should amateurs and pros play with different rules? That's an interesting topic too.

Alright, number six on the list out of, let's see how many items I have here, seven items, so I'm getting near the end, is provisional balls.

So I think this is more of a misunderstanding personally than a controversy, but I think many golfers think you can hit a provisional for penalty areas, and you cannot technically.

And then many golfers do not know when you are required to return and re-tee.

So we've talked about this in other episodes.

You may play a provisional ball if your original ball might be lost or out of bounds. The key is might.

If you know your ball is in a penalty area or out of bounds, you are technically by the rules not allowed to play a provisional ball.

If you know you hit it into a white stake area or if you know your ball clearly went into a yellow stake area or red stake area, technically you cannot play a provisional.

I think this matters the most for red stakes, because if you find your ball in a red stake area you have the option to play it, but then the rule says that you cannot hit a provisional ball up to the red stake area.

That just doesn't seem like a line.

If you know your ball went into a red stake area, you should be able to play a provisional in case you want to play that option because technically that is an option to you.

Otherwise you would have to go to the red stake area, look for your ball, you cannot find your ball, and now you have to go, if you wanted to, you could go back to your previous position and play from your last spot.

And especially when pace of play is considered, you are pretty much eliminating that option for amateurs if you are saying, hey, you have to play by the rules, you are not allowed to play a provisional ball.

So I definitely think that this rule actually can hurt pace of play if you are playing it by the rule book, which is if you think your ball, you can only play a provisional ball if you think it might be lost.

Otherwise you have to play by the rules, and that is going to hurt pace of play in my opinion.

Also kind of related to this is like, should you have to announce that you are playing a provisional? That is an interesting topic too.

I think it is probably a good idea because it helps people be held accountable.

I can definitely see people being like, oh, this shot was my actual shot, and it's like okay, no it was not. That was your provisional. You just did not say anything about it. It just seems sneaky.

There are probably so many different scenarios why this rule exists.

Definitely see amateurs not do that a lot. They definitely do not announce that they are playing a provisional, and I think in just normal amateur play that is probably fine.

But by the rules, you have to announce it.

And then this last one, it is just interesting, and I have never actually seen people assess themselves a penalty.

Technically you are not allowed to ask for advice during a round. So if you ask for what club should I hit or anything along those lines, like what is the distance, the only thing you are allowed to ask those things is either your caddie or your teammate if you are playing like match play.

If you ask it to an opponent, you are actually penalized for that, which is just kind of crazy to me that they have this rule.

And it has made me think, and I am wondering what do you think this rule exists for. I am not sure.

I tried to think about it a little bit.

Why would this rule exist, especially in competitive play?

The main thing that I came up with is to try to limit that sort of psychological play at hand.

I am thinking if I am playing along and my opponent is just constantly asking me what they should do, that could be a psychological aspect and it could take away from the game actually being a factor, and more so like the mental warfare of it.

Which is kind of ironic because there is always a huge element of the mental side of the game, but maybe that rule exists to help eliminate that.

So curious about what your thoughts are for that and whether or not you think that that should be a rule or not.

I kind of, I think personally, I do agree, but like I said, I have never actually seen anyone penalized for that.

I am sure it has happened on tour. I can't think of any scenario where I have seen that happen.

So I mentioned this earlier, and we have talked about a lot of controversial rules, but should amateurs follow the same rules as pros?

I think I would say probably no.

I think of like the divot rule, for example, and if they are going to do that rule in the PGA, fine, but we all don't play PGA courses.

And a lot of us will have divots from 50 yards in in the fairway all the way out to 300 yards in, and are we supposed to be penalized if our ball goes in the fairway and lands in a divot, especially as an amateur?

No.

Should a pro be penalized? In my opinion, no.

But that's the rules currently.

So should there be different rules for amateurs? I don't know honestly as I talk about it.

I think one goal that we all have is to try to be as good at golf as we can, and I don't feel like anyone would actually want to play by different rules than pros because that's the standard they're trying to hold up to.

So as we're talking about this, I actually think I might have changed my own mind.

I don't think there should be different rules for amateurs versus pros, but I definitely think there should be changes to the rules, for example the divot one.

I just don't think someone should be penalized for going in the fairway, whether you're an amateur or a pro.

Well here's another question then: if you shot a 79 and you and your buddies agreed to playing clean lift and replace in divots, does that mean you actually shot a 79?

Can you tell people you actually shot a 79 with that rule?

That could be a huge question and a huge controversy, like no.

I know a lot of people, I saw people making comments in the divot rule that they would adamantly say no.

If you didn't follow the rules 100% to a T, you cannot say that 79 is your best round.

Other people would say, oh that rule was so subjective or it's such a minor rule that you still shot a 79, it wouldn't have made an issue.

I think I would, it's tough.

Because I've heard my friends say, oh I've shot a 79, and I just know they don't play by the same stake rules.

For example, the out of bounds like we talked about earlier.

And I think like, okay, you didn't actually shoot a 79. You took red stake penalties whenever there was a white stake penalty.

That makes your rounds so much easier. That could be the difference of four to six strokes by the end of the day.

But if they told me the only rule they adjusted is the divot rule, I'd be okay with it.

So it's definitely subjective. It's definitely controversial. I don't think there's a clear answer if I'm being totally honest.

But here's a question too: how should amateurs approach the rules?

Because you have all these rules like the out of bounds stakes that just hurt amateurs so bad.

So here's a question: should amateurs play by the rules by the book, or should amateurs adapt the rules as they're getting better and better with the game?

I think personally that amateurs should adapt the rules as they're getting better, and their goal should be eventually to play 100% by the rules as they improve.

But the alternate goal is we want to still have fun with the game of golf.

And if you have more fun playing the white stakes as a red stake, then that's great.

Just when you tell people your scores or something like that, just own it.

Don't be afraid to say, oh I shot an 85, but note like I modify one rule when I play and I treat white stakes as red stakes.

That's fine.

Because in my head, I'm like, wow, you probably have the ability, if you played with the white stakes, on a good day, if you're hitting it really well, you'll probably shoot right around an 85.

Like it doesn't change much, but it makes your score very honest.

So golf is just such a unique game with all this.

It's so interesting to watch and hear golfers talk about rules.

It's so controversial, but it's also what makes this game so interesting.

With other sports, it's very clear.

I'm thinking football, you have a ten-yard penalty if you have holding, for example. That's a pretty black and white rule.

And then of course in football there's some subjectiveness whether or not a ball was caught or if it was actually a holding call or something like that.

But like in all those sports, you have someone else watching you. You have someone else being subjective. You have someone else enforcing these rules on you.

Unless you're playing on the PGA tour with a thousand cameras on you, you're not having someone watch you like that.

You are your own arbiter of the rules, which also means you have the freedom to change the rules as you see fit for your golf round.

And golf is such a unique aspect like that.

You can't just, if I'm watching the Rams, for example, play, they can't play with different rules versus the Seahawks versus the 49ers.

But we as golfers can play different rules with one set of friends versus another set of friends.

And maybe that's the answer to all this: just play your game and be relevant to maybe the scenario you're playing with.

So that might mean if you're just playing a casual round, don't worry about the rules at all. Hit four shots as long as it's not affecting pace of play into the green and enjoy it.

Maybe you're playing for money though, and then you guys have to agree upon rules ahead of time.

And say, okay, we're playing by the books everywhere, except if your ball is in a divot, you get free relief within one club head length of the divot.

Who knows what rules you want to have, but I think the key is, if it's competitive, agree ahead of time.

If it's just a casual round by yourself or just casually with some friends, play the rules that you see fit.

For example, something I love to do is like if I'm playing with one of my best friends Joe, we play every Friday, we don't really compete, we just get out and play and hang out.

I will hold myself to try to the strictest rules I can by the book just because I want to see what I can score.

Joe, on the other hand, he's more relaxed with it and I don't care at all.

We're not competing, we are not playing for money or anything like that.

But then I have another group of friends, we like to play for like five or ten bucks when we play.

We're going to agree to rules ahead of time and say, okay, these are the free relief options you have, these are blah blah blah.

And there have been times we're saying we're playing by the PGA rules, so divots, advice, everything, we're going to try to play by the rules as close as we can.

But all that is established ahead of time.

So golf is really unique. I love that aspect of golf.

And this episode has been a fun episode to kind of dig into a lot of opinions.

I'm hoping it sparks a lot of conversation afterwards. I'm sure a lot of you will have opinions about what rules you think should and shouldn't be followed, and if any should change.

So if you have any, definitely let us know.

I'm on pretty much all the social media platforms. Facebook is probably one of the easiest ways. You can just message me. I would love to hear from you.

I'm trying to build up this Birdie Board community, so definitely get involved however you can.

But this is pretty much it for this episode of the Birdie Board podcast.

Thanks for listening, everyone.

Thanks for tuning in to the Birdie Board podcast. If you enjoyed it, subscribe and share it with a friend who loves golf as much as you do.

And before your next round, grab the Birdie Board app free on the Apple App Store and Google Play Store and let it handle the scoring while you enjoy the game.